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Post by Shadow_Hunter on Aug 27, 2002 2:31:59 GMT -5
Well I've wrote my Eldar list to use for EpicA, the only thing is I need a stratergy rating and an initiative rating. And I also need any rules that may apply to Eldar.
If yo guys want to give me some Ideas, I'll try them out.
I'm about to play a 3000point battle between Marine and Eldar. For the moment its going to be a 'kill everything game'. There is an objective right in the middle of the board, but I cant imagine going for it with either army yet.
For the moment I'm going to give Eldar a stratergy rating of 5 and an initiative arting of 2+. So this is just slightly worse than marines. Ive already set up the board with the objective in the middle. I am using a two foot wide by four foot long board. The armies are deployed at the short edges. I probably wont be able to play much tonight, as its my cityfight campaign at the shop, but I'll try to start it off afterwards.
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Post by CyberShadow on Aug 27, 2002 7:17:22 GMT -5
To look at the special rules for Eldar, we need to think about how the perform in general.
They have basically two structures, the normal guardians and the aspect warriors. They normally fight on their own terms, but they suffer from being very fragile.
This being the case, I would suggest something like a strategy rating of five and an initiative of about 3, but that 'aspect warrior' detachments get a +1 to the roll.
For special rules, you need something to simulated that they cant cope with a protracted battle - not sure about this.
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Post by Shadow_Hunter on Aug 27, 2002 7:35:00 GMT -5
When I was going through the lists for Imperial Guard and Marines so that I could work out the Eldar formation, I noticed that Guard formations were large, and so would be able to receive a lot of blast markers before becoming broken, and that marines although small detatchments, need twice the amout of blast markers to units, so they can take a lot too. So what I thought would work is to keep the detatchments for Eldar small, so that it only takes a few blast markers to break the formation.
Initiative 3 seems a bit harsh, since thats what Orks are 3, and get a 2+ modifier for charges and double moves.
PS did you get the files okay? I sent them to my hotmail account too, but I was one file missing (the one for Eldar Titans). So I'm checking you got them okay.
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Post by CyberShadow on Aug 27, 2002 8:04:21 GMT -5
True, I had forgotten about the blast marker supression rule. Eldar as small detachments works well and simulates that fine. Perhaps initiative 3+ is a little harsh, but are the standard Guardians more likely to be disciplined and throw themselves forward than the Orks? maybe, are guards 2+? If so, that seems fine, maybe still with a +1 for Aspect Warrior detachments.
I got three documents from you, and I replied to your email (which means that it went to your 'other account'). I got the War Engines file seperately and last.
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Post by Shadow_Hunter on Aug 27, 2002 8:09:47 GMT -5
I was using the computer at my girlfriends parents house in Trowbridge, so I wont get any replies to that account.
Imperial Guard are initiative 2+, and I figured Guardians would be as disciplined as Guard. The +1 for aspects could work, I'll try that. It would mean that Eldar players would mactivate all there aspect warrior units first. Maybe they dont get the bonus if even one item containing Guardians is in the formation (like falcons) but only 40k players would know that.
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Post by CyberShadow on Aug 27, 2002 8:16:21 GMT -5
The easiest way to do this would be to have a specific aspect detachment, and only this type got the +1. Instead of the +1, what about if this detachment did not suffer the -1 for attempting to hold the initiative?
That would mean that it would often follow on from another detachment and would give Eldar the speed in striking.
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Post by Shadow_Hunter on Aug 27, 2002 8:29:39 GMT -5
I did do aspect detatchments, but I gave them the option of including wave serpents. Though maybe they still count as being pure aspect, since the pilots would be following the orders of the exarch or whatever.
Okay I'll try what you've suggested. 2+ initiative for eldar, but aspect formations (warhosts) dont suffer a -1 for keeping initiative.
I should have titled this thread maybe 'Eldar ideas for EpicA' or something, so that I've got a melting pot to gather ideas in.
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Post by Shadow_Hunter on Aug 28, 2002 9:28:10 GMT -5
Okay the battle is set, the armies deployed, and the experimental rules ready. I will play the game tonight and report back with how I get on with both Marines and Eldar. Below is a list of the armies for anyone interested (3000pts).
Marine
Tac squad (6 units plus rhinos) Tac squad (6 units plus rhinos) Assualt sqd (4 units) Dev sqd (4 units) Termie sqd (4 uints with 4 Land Raiders) Land Raider sqd (3 L.Raiders) Bike sqd (4 units) WhirlWind Sqd (3 units) Total = 3000pts
Eldar
Guardian Warhost (7 units plus command) Upgrades= support platform (4 units) war walker sqd (3 units) 2 Wraith Lords
Aspect warhost (6 units plus waveserpents) Aspect warhost (6 jump pack units) Falcon Warhost (3 units) Falcon warhost (3 units plus 2 units of Dark reapers) Jetbike Warhost (4 units) Vyper Warhost (5 units) Fire Prism Warhost (3 units)
Total=3000pts
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Post by Shadow_Hunter on Aug 29, 2002 6:04:09 GMT -5
Well I started the game last night. I haven't finished it yet, but its well underway.
The Eldar won the initiative the first turn, and closed in on the objective in the centre of the board. The guardians moved first, and the jump pack aspect warriors landing by the objective.
The marines double moved next and advanced with a tac sqd and the termie sqd complete with land raiders. After a flurry of dice, the jump packers were retreating to where they came from, broken. The turn went badly for Eldar. They couldn't do enough damage to the marines. Most of the Eldar fire power was directed at the land raiders, but to thier dismay it all bounced off the armoured hides. The return fire from the marines was accurate and deadly. The Vyper unit lost two of their number and broke, and most detatchments had at least one blast marker on them. At the end of the turn no marine units had broke, and only one formation had been noticably reduced.
The next turn was similar. The two broken formations never rallied (both the vypers and the aspect needing 4+) and the shooting directed at the land raiders was mainly ineffective. One was destroyed and it took its cargo of termies with it. The assault marines charged the unit of 3 falcons and wiped them out to no loss. A whirlwind was destroyed and a few tac units and rhinos were destroyed from the formation that was already depleted. However, it still held firm.
Turn 3 started with the marines winning the initiative, but at least the jump packers were rallied this time.
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Post by CyberShadow on Aug 29, 2002 6:16:22 GMT -5
It looks like your Eldar rules are doing well - they are certainly not over-balanced. I will be interested to see how they cope in hit and run attacks and how they cope with the heavier Marine armour.
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Post by Shadow_Hunter on Aug 29, 2002 6:21:04 GMT -5
Well my observations so far.
The units are extremely quick. A double move is usually sufficient to get you where you want to go, and you can still fire. (at -1).
The marines are tough...very tough. I was laying a lot of fire power into them, and it was all being soaked up. At least you get to place a blast marker just for shooting. With the rule of them needing twice as many blast markers as units to make them break, its extremely hard to shift them. Even regular marines shrug off a lot of firepower. (I was rolling consistantly high, it must be said). And the land raiders must have made ten armour saves before one finally was destroyed.
Things I've forgot to do were to pin units. I forgot that with every blast marker placed one unit cant fire. So far this has benefited the marines, since I had a lot of blast markers on them, but wasn't really killing anything. Then I would fire all of them back at the Eldar.
So far the rules for Eldar seem to be okay. The 2+ initiative is good, and then staying at 2+ if a aspect unit is tried next is not overpowering. Especially since there aren't that many aspect units (two). The formations are extremely hard to rally (4+) with aspect warriors needing the same result. It seems right though since Eldar are meant to be fragile. I think if anything the Eldar are a little overpriced, but then I maybe having bad luck with them, and not using them correctly. I will try them out a bit more as they are. If anything it makes them more Eldar like to be difficult to use correctly. Things I haven't used right are my fireprisms. Iv'e closed on the marines with them, when they have a 60cm range, meaning they can out shoot the marines.
Its all gonna come together with more games and practise. The hard thing at the moment is trying to control two armies. Remebering where you were going with each, and which ones you have already activated that turn. I think I need some kind of a marker to signfy which unit has moved.
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Post by Shadow_Hunter on Aug 30, 2002 6:54:00 GMT -5
Well I finished the game last night. In the end the Eldar held out, and captured the objective. The marines only had the devestator unit and one assault stand left. And also a rhino and tac stand broken.
The Eldar had the two aspect units (though depleted) the guardain unit and the jet bike unit.
It was a very bloody battle. Very high casualties either side. The Marines are very hard to get rid of. You have to wipe them out totally really, as they can always rally, and rally quite easliy (3+). Assualt is devestating at times. It was the only way the Eldar could defeat the Land Raiders effectively, as even if they weren't destroyed outright, they were broken.
The marines had a bit of bad luck. Their assault marines charged 3 falcons and two dark reapers, killing a dark reaper stand and two falcons. However, they rolled double one for assault, and lost the combat (which seemed ridiculus.) The army were then on –1 stratergy, though it didn’t make too much diffference.
The guardian unit were better than expected. They won an assault against the assault marines that rallied, sheer numbers winning through. They could dish out a lot of fire power, and receive a lot, without becoming broken. It really was the back bone of the army, capable of doing anything adequatly, which seems in character. The other units in the Eldar army (falcons, vypers, aspect warriors) whislt able to dish out a decent amount of fire power, couldn’t take it. They broke quite easily, as often all it would take was a blast marker for being shot at, and then a casualty or two. This seems bang on though, as Eldar should be hit and run. Able to dish it out, but rubbish when it comes to a war of attrition.
There were aspects of the game that were difficult to get right, purely because I was trying to control two armies. I didn’t use overwatch, despite the advantages Eldar get with pop-up attacks. And I didn’t use cross-fire, but I don’t think I even got to position units to be able to do it.
I would really like to play against someone, as it would really highlight aspects of the game better. I’ll have to get asking around.
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Post by CyberShadow on Aug 30, 2002 7:11:34 GMT -5
Play a few more games and keep notes of what happens, who wins etc. You can then send it all in to Jervis. He wont drop everything and print your rules, but if you are rational and have tested them then he will probably keep them in mind when it comes to designed the Eldar lists.
I would also like to see how the army works over more games.
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Post by Shadow_Hunter on Sept 5, 2002 10:17:59 GMT -5
Well I sent my list into Jervis after he said he would like to see it, and I got a reply. *****************
Hi Martin,
Thanks for the email and the attached army list. You may be interested to know that I've been sent to other Eldar lists over the last couple of days (synchronicity, huh!). My plan is to read through all three lists, ruthlessly steal all of the good bits from each one, and use the good bits with some ideas of my own in the final version we publish. I will of course credit you for your contribution to the final list! Unfortunately I have to go off on a business trip next week, so it is likely to be towards the end of the month before I can pull together the final version of the Eldar list or send you any feedback. Sorry for the delay!
Best regards,
Jervis Johnson Head Fanatic ****************
When Fanatic and more specifically Jervis take time to write back to your Emails, it sure makes you find the time to send some feedback to them. I think I'll have another game now tonight.
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Post by CyberShadow on Sept 6, 2002 4:29:48 GMT -5
Wow, now I am impressed. Your name in the new books. ;D
Remember the little people and this site when you are famous. Great work. Maybe that Stealer Cult army should be my next project...
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